Talk:Patient Spirit
1. Since when did waiting 3 seconds qualify as being patient? And 2, when would this be useful except if the other team tells you they are going to spike whoever? Might be useful in PvE if a tank charges in to a mob, but one use for every mob?--Cursed Condemner 18:43, 2 August 2007 (CDT) :: To answer 1: Compared to the instant healing that most heal spells deliver, 3 seconds is patient. 2: Versus pressure/degen teams maybe? Cast on a pressured target that was just brought back to near full health and try to keep him there while you cast on other people? PaintballerOWNZ 19:00, 2 August 2007 (CDT) :::Could be used when pre-protting a Warrior? Or could be used on the LoD if he knows a spike is coming he can fire it on himself, infuse and not have to worry about healing up.--Wakka 06:23, 6 August 2007 (CDT) :::I agree with PaintballerOWNZ, and at 1/4 sec, it's easily the fastest cast pure healing spell, even if the full effect doesn't happen immediately. A pure monk will actually get two healing pulses with this, one on cast because of divine favor and one 3 seconds later, and can therefore concentrate on healing other targets instead of focusing too much on a target suffering degen or is taking minor to moderate damage from another source. --Falseprophet 15:32, 14 August 2007 (CDT) One word: Dervishes. Another cheap, fast recharging, fast ending enchant monks can use on Dervs to feed them energy through Mysticism, with healing to boot. Arshay Duskbrow 19:53, 2 August 2007 (CDT) :I agree. Use a Mysticism / Earth Prayer Dervish. Combine this with Mystic Regeneration. If the HR of MR is not enough spam Patient Spirit. Get a health boost of an extra +3 or +4 HR for the extra enchantment and +50 extra health every 3 seconds. Get 4 energy back through Mysticism, cost you only 1 energy every 3 seconds. Keep that up for 10 seconds and you'll get 60+3x50+3x10= 240 health for 3 energy. Hexhammer 06:54, 15 September 2007 (CDT) Woot, it's like Lightning Surge for healing. "Spike healing" ftw? (T/ ) 00:00, 4 August 2007 (CDT) Works with Air of Enchantment too. Paragon City 20:43, 4 August 2007 (CDT) :Wastrel's Relief? edit: signed Hashmir 18:27, 6 August 2007 (CDT) Sounds like the healing equivalent of Reversal of Fortune. Minor instant heal from divine favor, then a bit later another minor heal. Helps to relieve pressure on the healing monk if used right. I think this sounds like a very resonable compliment to many Mo bars for efficiency (depending on your healing style). --Mooseyfate 09:37, 7 August 2007 (CDT) Can anyone possibly imagine a use for this skill? Please don't say dervishes -.- and please, please don't ask me to explain that request :p Cop? no. AoE? no. I see abundant synergies but nothing that's enough to begin to justify this on any serious skill bar. Phool 21:09, 7 August 2007 (CDT) :Delayed healing, which is quite frankly, useless compared to prot. As it is, it's Dervish Mysticism fodder, since the duration isn't really good enough as a cover enchantment. However, the cast time allows it to possibly be useful in that regard, depending on player skill. Can't think of any other reason to use it. --Kale Ironfist 21:30, 7 August 2007 (CDT) ::I'm guessing the most use of this skill will come from the fact that its an enchantment, you use it, then u use Dwayna's Kiss to get an extra 30 health out of it, then this heals for some more. Well, not good if you're in a hurry to heal, so maybe not, but it might be used to counter degen instead of breeze on a Divine Spirit spam build (1 energy vs 5), use it when they start losing health, then after they've lost a bit, they get healed i guess. On another note I bet the healing doesn't get reduced with Healer's Covenant. The Canadian 23:53, 7 August 2007 (CDT) :::The health drop from Covenant is a major concern, as there are few skills that bypass it, and the heals strong enough to ignore the reduction are too expensive to use with it. What I'm seeing from this skill is an HP version of Reversal, but due to mechanics, I just don't see it being used in PvP, except to fuel Mysticism. --Kale Ironfist 02:31, 8 August 2007 (CDT) Just awful Perhaps this + Dwayna's kiss for the enchant :P Shiverz 02:54, 20 August 2007 (CDT) :Ugh, that's a terrible combo. Yay for spending 2 seconds and 10 energy to heal someone for (assuming 14 HP and no DF) 166 health. Heal Other heals for (slightly) more than that (170) with a 3/4 cast and 3 seconds recharge. --Kale Ironfist 03:01, 20 August 2007 (CDT) ::Why is that combo so terrible? Assuming no DF is pretty convenient :) Assuming 11 DF, the combo heals for >30 more, because DF is applied twice. -- Roland of Gilead (talk) 23:17, 26 August 2007 (CDT) :::There's a reason why no Monk in PvP uses Signet of Devotion anymore. The 2 seconds required to cast it is a liability, considering the above combo is used to get someones health back up fairly high amounts. Even factoring in the DF bonus of say, 12 DF is only a net loss for HO/JG of 42 health, but it saves 1.25 seconds to cast. --Kale Ironfist 23:48, 26 August 2007 (CDT) ::::There is a huge difference between a 2 second cast for Sig of Devotion and a 3 second wait for a heal to take effect. With Signet of devotion you are left useless for 2 seconds using a signet that can easily be interupted. With Patient Spirit you have the ability to keep on casting, and have a cover enchant that has a positive effect when stripped. Kudoz2u 19:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC) Meh, I guess it does just plain suck :P Shiverz 00:06, 21 August 2007 (CDT) Humm...I know that as a Monk, sometimes I get pissed when my Vigorous Spirit continually gets Shattered or whatever. That's when I take Watchful Healing instead, so that I can Lol when it gets removed prematurely. Patient Spirit is sort of the same way except that you gain no extra benefits from it either being active longer (Blessed Aura) or being removed prematurely. I was wondering if perhaps this + Signet of Pious Light could be useful. Or perhaps use Air of Enchantment... The only other use I can see for this skill would be in PvP. If you cast this on someone, they receive the Divine Favor bonus right away and then a small, Orison-like heal a bit later. Now, let's say that (for whatever odd reason) you are not being monitored constantly. It would be kind of surprising after 3 seconds, when your target suddenly gets healed out of thin air. I could see this maybe being useful to throw around so the enemy doesn't know who you're really healing. But it still seems like a waste of energy. (T/ ) 00:17, 21 August 2007 (CDT) :The heal is about as strong as a LoD. They won't fall for that kind of psychological tactic. Especially when you can look and see who they're targeting. --Kale Ironfist 00:20, 21 August 2007 (CDT) ::Ah well, it was worth a shot. I guess this gets relegated to /ragequit material, then, or at least LAME status... Although, if you look at Remove Hex... :d (T/ ) 00:22, 21 August 2007 (CDT) I dont know what your talking about, this is a great skill. 5 energy, 1/4 cast time. combo this with signet of devotion, and bam, as soon as SoD is done casting you have yourself a big heal for only five energy. At 15 Healing Prayers, this + SoD heals for 180 STRAIGHT healing; With divine favor, it goes up to about....200+? Personally i think this is a good "PvE" infuse.--75.189.71.19 12:27, 1 September 2007 (CDT) :I would ask that you look at all angles. This takes 3 seconds to get the healing. You probably would have been better off using Signet of Rejuvenation and a 5 energy heal (Dwayna's Kiss or Healing Whisper). It'd come out faster (by .25 seconds) and (likely) have more healing at the same cost. --Kale Ironfist 20:08, 2 September 2007 (CDT) I do agree in the fact that this spell seems not very useful as a primary heal, but as a complementing spell this actually seems pretty useful to me: Usually you would start healing someone at around 75-80% health, expecting more damage to hit your target. Now, with a direct heal you would top out someone who was not being hit any further and most probably overheal by some 30 points, give or take. With this cast on your target, you would probably bring someone from 75% to around 85% - 95% by your DF. That should suffice as minor heal if your target is not being spiked, then the additional healing will probably either top his/her health out and you have not lost anything compared to a direct heal, or, if that target is being hit further it will at least provide you with the opportunity to use a direct heal to possibly counter a larger spike. -- Yu 18:52, 9 September 2007 (CDT) :Reversal of Fortune. You get damage reduction and healing when you need it most. Much more versatile. --Kale Ironfist 19:19, 9 September 2007 (CDT) ::Not on a healing spec, I fear not. Mostly this seems like an argument from Healing Hands, Healing Seed or Seed of Life vs. Mark of Protection, it is neither valid, nor comparable in the context. This actually addresses a common problem with most player monks that start healing way too early, while Reversal is a whole different matter. You do not usually use Reversal to heal, but rather negate damage. That is not the point here. -- Yu 07:05, 10 September 2007 (CDT) :::What I'd like to know is, how many healing (straight increases in health) skills do you have on your bar? This is just another, and all the examples you have given could be better countered with Reversal of Fortune or even Guardian. Good Monks will triple spec HP, 9+1 PP, 9+1 DF, so that even a Healing Prayers based Monk has 10 Protection Prayers and some PP skills, because Protection Prayers is so much stronger (and generally faster output). This has a 3 second delay before it does its job, and I don't see it being a complementing skill worth using because of it (mistiming issues). The cost of a skill slot to reduce versatility is too much, I think, for this to even be considered a 'useful skill'. Even if you were good enough to 'preprot' in a sense with it, the time bought by it is nothing compared to Guardian, Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond. Considering that Guardian, Protective Spirit and Reversal are CORE skills, I do not see this skill catching on as a time buyer for something like Infuse. It doesn't do enough to warrant using unless you had no Protection Prayers at all. --Kale Ironfist 01:00, 13 September 2007 (CDT) ::::This is not another run-off-the-mill direct heal. As you have a certain cognitive dissonance in your opinion considering its nature (now, is it complementing or straight?), I would like to point to my earlier issue, i.e. player monks starting to heal early, seeing as you did not address that in a sufficient manner. Your opinion here is: Three seconds delay = bad. I am saying here that it is more or less the amount of time needed between a hostile situation and the response from an average monk player. Of course Reversal of Fortune et al. would do the trick, but, seeing as not every monk necessarily has it on his or her bar or perhaps a too low Protection Prayers rating to make Protection skills efficient, this skill is to be considered a singleton in ability for the Healing Prayers line. Here is another point, as I cannot quite agree with your wording of "Good Monks will...". You imply therewith that your standards are the comparison mark for everybody. The remaining part of your reasoning depend on your view how a monk should be and is therefore not very convincing. If someone wanted to 'preprot', he or she would probably use skills from the Protection Prayers line, hence the comparison of buying time between Protection Prayers skills and this skill is not quite as useful. We never argued about Protection Prayers not being stronger in terms of damage mitigation or buying time. As it stands, you have yet to bring forward an argument that speaks against the usability of this skill as a secondary heal (see reasoning from the beginning). Seeing as many different people are indeed considering real possibilities in using this skill, I am not convinced this skill belongs on the useless-skill pile. -- Yu 20:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT) :::::While it's not direct, it is delayed, and the delay is fairly long, considering you're using it for healing purposes. 3 seconds to draw a response is slow, and it still relies on the player being able to pre-prot, otherwise the healing is delayed even further. As for my comment, it is aimed to educate, as this skill is not very strong as is, and can easily be used against you, what with all the enchantment hate in PvE, and PvP there will always be someone on the opposing team ripping them from you. Sure, it heals on termination, but the scenario you cited above will end up overhealing. As a secondary heal, it doesn't have the same versatility. Yes, the heal is fairly high for its stats, but is delayed by 3 seconds (the major setback to the skill). Why use it, when other already established healing skills do just as good a job (I'm looking at Healing Touch, Signet of Rejuvenation, Healing Whisper, Ethereal Light, Words of Comfort, Dwayna's Kiss) without being forced to delay. To prevent overhealing? You're still expending energy when it could have been done better with a prot skill (note that Guardian at 5+ prot is very low will be enough). The possibilities with this skill do not look efficient/strong enough compared to before the introduction of GW:EN skills. Note also that I have never said it was useless, I said it was useless compared to prot and the combos presented on this page were terrible. The only use I can see with this skill is in powering Release Enchantments because the alternatives involve taking up a skill slot or replacing a skill, and the effect isn't worth the tradeoff in my opinion. Point me where the discussions are taking place, because at the moment, it's about 1 second too long in delay for it to be worth using in any scenario. I'd rather use Signet of Devotion because it's just as strong, but is energy management, and due to activation time, just as delayed in healing (but less so). --Kale Ironfist 23:13, 15 September 2007 (CDT) ::::::Indeed, it certainly is delayed. That does not make it bad. Actually, as a side note, it is possible to even enlarge the time from cast to heal with a 20% mod of enchanting to four seconds. Whereas your observations all have been limited to one target to heal, it is exactly in this point that this spell shines: It is a guaranteed, almost not interruptable and indirect heal. Let us take into consideration your example from above, where you stated that this and Dwayna's Kiss would make a bad combination. As I noted, you consider only one target with that example, as once you have more time between the factual heal and the casting, you are able to focus on someone different for a moment, then go back to your original target and heal for more in gross total than you would be able to if you used two direct healings on one target, seeing as you proposed that as examplified issue. Indeed, if you were in a situation to outheal or prevent a spike on your target, you would certainly not use this, I already noted so already above in my initial post. If your target was not pressurised, as you noted the concern for overhealing, there might, not will, sometimes be overheal (in a situation as presented above), as there would be for certain if you used a direct heal at that moment, so that certainly is not an issue in comparison to your other cited healing skills, as you would expend the same energy in both cases. As for the comparison with protection skills, I have noted so before: We are not arguing in a protection context. If you drag this skill into the meta with protection skills then of course it will look bad, seeing as protection skills mostly excel in preventing and not healing damage. I believe we can finally agree on this part. Otherwise you are just trying to state: 'This skill is unusable as a protection skill.' That seems rather pointless, does it not? As for the issue with enchantment removal, seeing as I mentioned this skill as 'guaranteed heal' it is just that: It can serve as Shatter-fodder, or short time cover, with benefits granted whether or not it is stripped. Actually this is the same as with Watchful Healing, or if you so will, even Mantra of Recall et al. If you feel to criticise the lasting duration then I should point out that all of them have about (not exactly!) a one-to-one ratio of recharge and duration. Granted, it does not make for a very energy efficient method, but is one nonetheless. Note here that there is no protection skill except Purifying Veil that offers a benefit on ending. Therefore this skill also fares better than a common protection skill when removed with combined damage! While we are at the benefits, I would also like to point out that this is possibly the only skill that has the possibility of negating damage from a life steal beforehand. Your own usage is obviously left to yourself, but as I mentioned, you only consider a situation where you have one target focused and either are a triple spec or a protection monk and therefore overlook possibilities and nuances in usage. It is quite agreeable if you want to educate, but being biased does not help in determining the value of a skill, especially so little time after it has been first brought into discussion. -- Yu 10:56, 17 September 2007 (CDT) :::::::Given that it takes a full second before you can target someone else with a spell due to aftercast (.25 cast + .75 aftercast), if you are in a situation where you need to target someone else, the actual advantage isn't as great as you present it to be due to the actual healing. It'd almost certainly be better to use Infuse Health to save one and use another skill to attempt to save the other, since that is the only situation in which you need to have more than one target. Otherwise, the elites of the Healing Prayers line most used by players negate the advantage (LoD healing several at once/HBoon boosting casts+heals) :::::::The reason why I keep bringing up Protection skills is because of the 3 second delay, since you must use it very similarly to the action of 'pre-protting' to ensure the efficiency of the healing. 2 seconds, I think, would be better as there is less uncertainty on whether the healing will come in when you need it. Bringing up the duration-recharge ratio of PP skills has less relevance since those skills will (for the most part) always have an effect, not just on end. The only one (that most Monks use) that does not is Reversal, but it has more versatility, and I think, makes it a better contender for the skill slot than Patient Spirit, since it has a more general purpose. Shatter fodder is less critical, as in PvE you will generally see groups of Mesmers use it or none at all. In this scenario, they will generally eat the cover and go through the more important enchantments underneath anyway. In PvP, you will find either mass rending, meaning covers are useless, fast recharging enchantment removals to the point that the healing done by this skill is wasted, or target switching. This is only covering enchantment removals, and doesn't cover things like Distracting/Savage Shot to hit your predictable casts. :::::::Pointing out that it negates damage is incorrect, as it does not negate, but heal after-the-fact. The only difference the wording makes is that negate would indicate the person would not die from the life-steal should they be low enough on health for it to happen. While it can certainly be used like that, the only life-steal I would be scared about is Twisting Jaws, as blood-spike isn't likely to pop up soon as it isn't as effective as other methods. Lastly, pointing out advantages that have little to no value in a pitched battle do not sell it as a skill worth taking more often than others. The biggest advantage it has is that the healing for its cost/activation/recharge is high, but that comes with the 3 second delay before it does anything. The problem with putting it on a skill bar is that Monk bars are already filled with must haves, and that there are alternatives that are more powerful in a general manner (another reason why I bring up prot), and thus this skill is not as useful to bring on a general basis. As it is, it's too hard to get a better use out of it than an alternative skill for such a small benefit. --Kale Ironfist 07:23, 19 September 2007 (CDT) This+Healing Light? Spike Heal? lol72.211.238.37 22:10, 16 August 2007 (CDT) this would be good with dwana's kiss- Raidan of Earthrelm :I've already pointed out why that is a bad combo above. --Kale Ironfist 20:02, 29 August 2007 (CDT) One idea to make it useful(kinda) is to have it heal 10..55(67 at 15HP) when it ends, and give back 3 or even 5 energy? I mean, SOMETHING has to come out of being patient! Compared to Orison, this is just... weaker.--89.172.38.247 17:39, 31 August 2007 (CDT) D/Mo this + Signet of Pious Light is incredible combo for dervishes. u can spam heal urself like there is no tomorrow. With 9 Earth prayers and 9 healing prayers it's 138 health every 3 seconds. the rest of the attribute points you might put into scythe mastery. Possible use: Enchantment requiring heals? I can't remember off the top of my head any skills that require enchantments for an extra effect to occur but I know i've used some and they're out there. Could this skill be an easy way to fill in the requirement for those skills? I know you could easily fill in the requirement with other skills like vigorous spirit but this spell heals with no requirement (like vigorous requires an attack). And even if this enchantment is shattered, it will still give the healing. Or could this spell be used for protection against shatters? i know it lasts pretty short but you could stick it on a high priority target. COLDshiver 08:11, 10 September 2007 (CDT) :You could use it as a reactive cover enchantment. Due to aftercast delay though, I don't see such (above) combos becoming effective at all. Although that does remind me of Me/Mo fastcasting Monk enchantments on another Monk so that they could use Release Enchantments. It's not efficient, and it's generally a waste of slots now that Light of Deliverance exists, but it can be used. --Kale Ironfist 01:00, 13 September 2007 (CDT) Thoughts *Air of Enchantment -- double spec...not so great. *Healing Light/Dwayna's Kiss -- a fun combination...but better paired with Vig Spirit, Dwayna's Sorrow, or a second monk running prot enchants. Also note that while the heal is slightly stronger than Heal Other with the Divine Favor bonus, it takes much longer, and that's a strong downside. *Scourge Healing -- probably does not trigger? *Healer's Covenant -- possibly a decent cheap healing boost. *Contemplation of Purity -- an ok combo, though perhaps inferior to Watchful Healing + CoP. --Carmine 00:44, 20 September 2007 (CDT) :It does bypass Scourge Healing as it's an enchantment. In most places, scourge healing from pve foes in normal mode is not as high in damage to be a significant problem. Though in hard mode it's another story for a healer monk (or minion master), but normally if I play prot monk in that kind of situation I would throw Protective Spirit, and if I have on me, Spirit Bond on the healer monk to prevent suicide from Heal Party, LoD or BotM than having to take Patient Spirit for this niche. Reichi Aryon 04:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)